Whfb - Dwarves vs Daemons – part 2 – Neil’s list and Battle Report

At the normal club meet on Friday, I faced off against Neil and his latest Daemon list. Having only received that day, I was unable to write up some thoughts beforehand but I was able to look at it on my lunch briefly to give me an idea of what I was facing. Without further a due, here is his list (and mine can be found here):

Neil’s Khorne based list


Billy the Bloodthirster – Lesser gift (multiple wound 2) – 425pts

Skulltaker – juggernaut, slayer sword, cloak of skulls – 250pts

Herald of Nurgle – bsb, lesser locus of virulence, War banner, palanquin – 240pts


32 Plaguebearers – Full command, Banner of Swiftness – 461pts

10 Bloodletters – Full command – 170pts


4 Bloodcrushers of Khorne – Full command, Razor Standard – 325pts

5 Flesh Hounds of Khorne – 165pts

1 Beast of Nurgle – 60pts

1 Beast of Nurgle – 60pts

1 Beast of Nurgle – 60pts

5 Chaos Furies of Khorne – 70pts

5 Chaos Furies of Khorne – 70pts


Skull Cannon of Khorne – 135pts


Thoughts on his list

I won’t go into a huge amount of depth on his list as didn’t before the game so it is just some initial thoughts on it.

Bloodthirster! I’d never faced one before so was quite excited to see one (though I really didn’t want to get into combat with it….

No Magic! (Yes over use of exclamation marks abound!!!). This is about the first time that i’ve ever seen no magic (normally Lore of Death) in a list Neil’s taken. Sure it invalidates a number of items in my list but that’s always a chance when creating an allcomers list.

Ambushers. His Flesh hounds will have the ability to come on behind my lines, so i’ll have to be careful not to leave any gaps for him to exploit.

In terms of the rest of the list, not much has changed from my initial thoughts. The Skull cannon is a priority for my Cannon and the Furies for the Organ Guns.

Pre-match rolls

The Dwarf hatred roll (setting the tone for the rest of the game) was a one which meant just General vs General.

The Bloodthirsters lesser gift was Cleaving Blow, which gave the Multiple Wounds (2) rule.

For Terrain, we didn’t worry about rolling on the table and just grabbed a couple of woods, a couple of buildings, some obstacles and a hill.

We rolled Meeting Engagement for the scenario and Neil won the choice for sides and picked the side that had the majority of the terrain, figuring he could hide behind most of it.

1. Terrain


As per the rules we rolled off to see what started off the table. In a spectacular display of rolling, Neil had the following start off the table:

Bloodthirster, Herald of Nurgle, 5 Furies (+ his ambushing Flesh Hounds).

Not to be outdone I had to beat him and rolled the following into reserves.

Cannon, 25 Longbeards, 16 Irondrakes, 16 Quarrellers.

This left me with precisely 3 ‘units’ and all my characters to set up initially!

Neil chose to set up all his available units first and placed a lot of them behind buildings. The exceptions were the Plaguebearers, that were put on the table edge so that the Herald could join them when it arrived and the Skull Crushers and Cannon, placed almost at his table edge.

I had an idea of how I wanted to put my battle line in order to maximise ‘bubbles’ and put everything on the base line so that from turn 2, my other units would come on into that setup. This was my first and the most costly error of the game as it meant the Organ Guns were effectively out of play for the entire game!

2. Deployment

img_31032. Deployment - Dwarf4. Deployment - Daemons5. Deployment - Daemons3. Deployment - all

Turn 1 – Daemons

In the only action of the turn, the skull cannon shot at one of the Organ Gun, killing 2 on the crew and damaging the fine machine. Burrnoth could only watch helplessly as the daemons taunted him, knowing that he was unable to retaliate.

The Bloodletters controlling their killing instinct, sloped off into the nearby tower raising the blood standard from the parapets.

3. Turn 1 Daemons

6. Turn 1 - Daemons

Turn 1 – Dwarves

With the majority of the enemy out of range, the two engineers turned their charges to the daemons in the nearby building. In a display of complete ineptitude, both machines manged to misfire and fire just 2 shots each resulting, as you might have expected, in zero hits.

4. Turn 1 Dwarf

Turn 2 – Daemons

Some of the Daemons started to move towards the dwarf side of the table but there was no sign of their reinforcements bar a unit of ambushing hounds that appeared on one flank of the Dwarf lines.

The enemy cannon once again fired, this time finishing what it started and destroying the Organ gun. Burrnoth could only watch, with impotence at the Daemons capering about on top of the infernal machine.

5. Turn 2 Daemons

Turn 2 – Dwarves

With the sound of horns and beat of drums, the dwarf reinforcements marched up to join the battle line.

The remaining Organ Gun turned toward the Chaos Hounds and obliterated the warped dogs in a single round of shooting.

The Valkyrie, moved forward and shot the nearest Beast of Nurgle. The boiling steam proving too much for it’s regenerative powers to overcome.

6. Turn 2 Dwarf

8. Turn 1 - Dwarves9. Turn 1 - Dwarves

Turn 3 – Daemons

With a terrible roar, that shock the battlefield, Billy the Bloodthirster announced his arrival. The other unit of furies swarmed round him. With much less fanfare, the Herald directed his palanquin to join the unit of plaguebearers.

With the unit of hounds destroyed and the second Gyro now a threat, the advanced unit of Furies retreated behind the bloodletter controlled tower and the 2 Beasts of Nurgle also withdrew back towards the wood.

Rot, Glorious Rot blossomed over the field of battle and the Valkyrie was the recipient taking damage as parts of the machine rusted away.

The Skullcannon continued it’s grow it’s tally of dwarven warmachines, this time adding the Cannon, Lizardbane, to it’s list. Burrnoth could only watch, his rage growing, as the Daemons danced in glee at the destruction wrought.

7. Turn 3 Daemons

11. Turn 3 - Daemons

Turn 3 – Dwarves

Burrnoth ordered the quarrellers to move up at maximum speed trying to get their crossbows in range of something. The Valkyrie flew at the double to the blindside of the plaguebearer unit (in the process forgetting to unload it’s compliment of bombs). The other Gyro moved up (hiding behind the side of the building) to threaten the 2 Beasts of Nurgle.

The Irondrakes and remaining Organ gun fired at the only only available target, the Bloodletters, completely failing to hit anything in the process.

8. Turn 3 Dwarf

12. Turn 3 - Dwarves13. Turn 3 - Dwarves

Turn 4 – Daemons

The Daemon flying wing, consolidated together and advanced down the edge of the board. Seeing the bellowing greater daemon and it’s lesser com padres looking at him, the Dwarf Gyro sudden felt an overwhelming urge to be somewhere else at that point.

The unit of plaguebearers advanced now their Herald was present and the nearby Beast moved to intercept the Valkyrie.

The Skullcannon completed it’s task as it removed the final Organ Gun making it 3 for 3.

9. Turn 4 Daemons

14. Turn 4 Daemons

Turn 4 – Dwarves

The Gryo flew over the Bloodthirster and Furies that had been threatening it and shot into the swarm, taking down one of their number.

The Irondrakes managed to succeed where the Organ Guns hadn’t and finally killed one of the Bloodletters hiding in the nearby tower.

The Valkyrie, dodging the obvious trap the daemons had set, and was able to continue it’s harrassment of Nurgles children taking off another of them.

The Quarrellers and 2 blocks of dwarf warriors started to advance towards the Daemons.

10. Turn 4 Dwarf


Turn 5 – Daemons

The Skull Cannon decided to, this time, target the Gyro harassing the Furies but in a break from the run of play, failed to wound it.

The Plaguebearers continued their advance towards the dwarf lines whilst the beast continued to try and limit the Valkyries movements.

The flying swarm, backed up by the remaining 2 Beasts, moved round the building and were now in a position to threaten the dwarf lines.

11. Turn 5 Daemons


17. Turn 5 Daemons

Turn 5 – Dwarves

The dance of the Valkyrie continued and it was able to get behind the plaguebearer unit and unleashed the full power of it’s steam gun into them killing six of the damned. The quarrellers also targeted the unit but the range was against them and only one of the gruesome Daemons fell to the volley.

The Irondrakes, performing a quick reform, targeted the Bloodthirster, burning a wound from it.

12. Turn 5 Dwarf

Turn 6 – Daemons

The two Beasts of Nurgle, two units of Furies and Bloodthirster all attempted to charge the Irondrakes but with the Rune of the Standard blazing brightly, only one unit of Furies made it in. The Bloodthirster bellowed in frustration as it took another wound in the process. In the resultant combat, the Furies failed to kill any of the dwarves, who killed one in return and two more of them were sucked back into the realm of Chaos as the units grasp on stability failed.

On the other flank, the Plaguebearers also failed to charge the Longbeards in front of them.

The Skull Cannon tried to target the BSB in the Hammerers but the shot fell short and plowed into the ground a few feet short of them.

13. Turn 6 Daemons

18. Turn 6 Daemons

Turn 6 – Dwarves

The Quarrellers and Valkyrie again combined their fire into the plaguebearers, taking off another complete rank between them.

The other Gyro moved up and killed another fury but they held firm due to the inspiring presence of the General.

In the final move of the game, the Irondrakes killed off the remaining Fury.

14. Turn 6 Dwarf


It was a draw in the end as the BRB states you must have double the victory points of your opponent.

Daemons – 445 VP’s (Organ Gun – 150, Organ Gun – 145, Cannon – 150)

Dwarves – 235 VP’s (Furies – 70, Flesh Hounds – 165).

There were no bonus victory points.


Well that was…interesting.

This was probably the quickest game of 8th either of us had ever played (about 2 hours long, games at the club are often in the region of 3.5 hours – we aren’t the speediest players).

Neil and I felt that the game had been a bit of a non event and were both left wanting. Between half the armies starting off the board, no magic phase, Neil not wanting to bring anything on until the cannon was neutralised and me sitting on the board edge, virtually nothing happened for the entire game. In the final turn where he was in a position to charge, he forgot about the Irondrake’s Rune of Slowness and it prevented him from getting almost everything into combat.

As I stated in the deployment section, probably my one major error was setting the Organ guns up on the base line. I should have set them up far further forward, where they could reach most of the board. Placing them on the edge just meant the skull cannon could pick them off without them doing anything.

I have come to one conclusion, one cannon just isn’t enough. In this type of army I need to include either a second cannon or a Grudge Thrower. My preference would probably be the GT as this would (1) give a template weapon to my arsenal, (2) allow speculative shots to hidden Ironblasters etc. (3) I’ve not used one this edition. I should have come to this decision a while back but in my other games I had been very lucky and normally struck first with my cannon. With a second long range option, I would still be able to strike back in the event the cannon or GT were destroyed. It would likely mean dropping one or both of the Organ guns as i’m coming to the opinion that I prefer the Irondrakes (though I’d always take them and one OG as a preference).

It’s also worth pointing out that in the entire game the Trollhammer failed to hit at all. Showing once again why I never take the damn thing!! (I just can’t make single dice rolls…)

Sods law but this is one game where the MRo Grungni might have come in handy to protect the war machines.

Next up is likely a rematch vs Luke so I need to decide whether to bring the dwarves again or maybe the Wood elves.

Whfb - Dwarves vs Neil’s Daemons – part 1 – My list and thoughts

I enjoyed my game with Luke so much that I was itching to get in another and during that game, Neil approached asking if I was free in a couple of weeks. After checking with the diary/keeper of my chain, I was able to book in a date and having forgotten how much I like them, I decided to again take the dwarves but a somewhat amended list from the previous game.


Throng of Karak Silvertop


Barlin Silvertop – Runesmith (General) – Ro Stone, Ro Spellbreaking * 2, shield – 113pts

Harek Silvertop – Runesmith – Ro Stone, Ro Spellbreaking, Shield – 93pts

Drugin Silvertop – Thane (BSB) – MRo Valaya, Shield – 158pts

Burrnoth Strongarm – Master Engineer – Ro Stone, BoP – 85pts

Dolgin Rockfist – Master Engineer -70pts


25 Longbeards – FC, GW, Ro Stoicism – 415pts

14 Quarrellers – GW, Standard, Musician – 216pts


23 Hammerers (The Silvergate Guard) – Standard, Musician, MRo Groth One-Eye – 417pts

Cannon (Lizardbane) – Ro Forging, Ro burning – 150pts

Gyrocoptor (The Valkyrie) – 80pts

Gyrocoptor – 80pts


16 Irondrakes (The Firewardens) – FC, Trollhammer Torpedo, Ro Slowness – 325pts

Organ Gun – Ro Accuracy – 145pts

Organ Gun (Little Betty) – Ro Accuracy, Ro Burning – 150pts

List thoughts

This is probably the most competitive list i’ve taken to date and on paper i’m really happy with it. It contains most of my favourite units. It is a bit cheesy but it’s rare I play in an uncomp’ed environment so I wanted to try out the double OG at least once.


The Hammerers will form the centre of the line and with Groth, will extend a 12″ bubble of stubborn to anything nearby. One warmachine will be placed either side of the the Hammerers and likely the Quarrellers and Irondrakes will then flank them so they are still within the stubborn bubble. The final warmachine will go the other end of the Quarrellers and the Longbeards (also with stubborn through their standard) will anchor that end of the line. This setup should ensure that nothing runs and everything fights to the last Dwarf and the two blocks of troops should be able to counter anything that makes it into combat with any of the shooters.

Magical defence

Between the Valaya banner and the two Runesmiths, i’m hoping to be able to shut down the magic phase whilst, with a bit of luck, removing the most dangerous of the enemy spells.


The 2 engineers, each manning an organ gun, will give them a 2+ to hit (or 3+ at long range). Two are to ensure redundancy. Between them and the irondrakes that is a lot of str 5 AP shots. One engineer has the brace of pistols and Ro Stone to make an effective warmachine guard (and if I put him in the quarreller unit, a short range stand and shoot reaction for them). The other is naked as I didn’t have the points to upgrade him. I did consider dropping the pistols in order to give both of them the Ro Stone. The Cannon is there for taking down the tougher models and with 3 warmachines it should prove harder for him to close them all down. I would have loved to have fit in a Grudge thrower (one day I will) but I would have had to remove too many options to fit one in, especially to fit on the runes of penetrating, accuracy and forging that I would want to include.

One of the breaks from my normal traditional list, is to give the Irondrake champion the Trollhammer Torpedo. After realising the Bo Drakepistols did not actually confer short range stand and shoot, I thought I’d try out something different. This will give another high strength ranged attack, with flaming, for the army and this should be on the other flank to the cannon.

General thoughts

Again I’ve gone Mro Valaya over Grungni on the bsb. With the almost guaranteed Lore of Death that Neil is sure to take, we will see if it works out for me but on paper I’m preferring the +2 to the dispel level and chance to get rid of remains in play spells over a 4++ ward on the bsb and 6″ bubble of 5++ ward vs shooting. I think it’s the small range of the bubble and how little impact the rune has made, in any game I’ve used it, that puts me off. A rank of 5 dwarves is around 4″ so it will basically give the warmachines either side a ward and that’s it and 5++ isn’t that great especially against multiple shots (I know others would argue differently).

Tactically, it will be the normal dwarf stance of shoot the crap out of everything and hope to soften it up enough to finish it off when it reaches our lines. In terms of target priority it has to be anything that flys and can reach the warmachines quickly. Furies are a prime example of this and they will be top priority for the organs, as with negative modifiers for skirmish and long range, they are the only thing that can reliably hit them. His skull cannon is also high up on the list as it will be gunning for my own cannon and will then likely try for the organ guns after (this is the one reason Grungni’s ward save would be useful).

In a break from the norm’ I haven’t see a copy of my opponents list in advance so can’t give any pregame thoughts so I’ll cover this in the battle rep.

WHFB – Dwarves vs Luke’s WoC – part 1 – lists and thoughts.

With the completion of my KOW group games and the new edition of 40k not out until June, I thought i’d try and get in a few games of whfb.


Like me, Luke was a former player who took a break (you can see from the pictures in this post that his figures are very much oldhammer and I love his banners) and came back to warhammer late in the day so both of us are still very much into 8th ed. As such I proposed a series of games against him and having multiple armies I asked him what he had never played in 8th. Of the one’s easily to hand, it was Dwarves and Wood Elves. In order to give him a competitive game I said i’d bring Dwarves to start with and then later on i’d give wood elves a go (and offered him the use of any of my armies for the evening, if he wanted to try something else). Having decided the race, I then offered him the choice of what sort of army he wanted to face: Full gunline, all melee or combined arms. He wanted to try a bit of everything for the first game (and as we were playing a series of games, I could bring something different next time). So with that said (and after some good advice from the EEFL forum – which of course I then mainly ignored ;p), I decided on the following list:

The Throng of Karak Silvertop

Characters – 658pts

Knoffles Silvertop – (General) Lord – Shieldbearers + GW + Ro Fortitude + 2 * Ro Iron – 271pts

Drugin Silvertop – (BSB) Thane – MRo Gromril + GW – 126pts

Harek Silvertop – Runesmith – Ro Stone + Ro Spellbreaking + Shield – 93pts

Barlin Silvertop – Runesmith – Ro Stone + Ro Spellbreaking + Ro Furnace + Shield – 98pts

Burrnoth Strongarm – Master Engineer – 70pts

Core – 626pts

Quarrellers (14) – Standard + GW – 205pts

Dwarf Warriors (39) – FC + GW – 420pts

Special – 749pts

Hammerers (36) – Musician + Standard + Ro Valaya – 589pts

Gyrocoptor – 80pts

Gyrocoptor – 80pts

Rare – 465pts

Irondrakes (17) – FC + Brace of Drakeguns + Ro Slowness – 320pts

Organ gun – Ro Accuracy – 145pts

List thoughts

Though there are elements of what i would normally include the build is somewhat different in order to give Luke a flavor of different dwarf options.

Although I love the model and this is my preferred build if I take him, I would not normally take a dwarf lord, if only because for the points I could fit in another unit! He is however great fun and is the head of Karak Silvertop so for fluff I love taking him in lists (and he is amazingly tanky and it will give Luke a chance to play against him). This build gives him a 2+ armour save, 4 str 6 attacks (and 2 str 4 attacks) and a toughness of 7 with 6 wounds. Almost monster stats, all in someone that still maintains the lookout sir rule!

The two Runesmiths are often staples and with the BSB are known to Dwarf players as the holy trinity. I’ve kept them as bare minimum build so they have a 2+ save and a ‘dispel rune’ each.

I’ve gone for a BSB build I don’t normally take as I wanted to try it out. I have been taking the MRo Grungni because as standard, that gives him a 4+ ward (with a 3+ armour save) and a 5+ ward vs shooting for anything within 6″. I found that this was quite situational so decided to keep him cheap and quite hitty with a 1+ armour save and great weapon. I did toy with giving him a Ro Iron to add another wound but taking more characters than normal meant I tried to keep loadouts at a minimum.

The Master Engineer I would normally give a BoP and Ro Stone but again with points restrictions he is being fielded as standard. I nearly dropped him but with only 1 warmachine in the list, I wanted to maximise it’s potential and use him as a guard.

I’ve fielded shield beards as an anvil recently (mainly as the models were painted) with mixed success, however I decided their defensiveness wasn’t good enough and neither was the damage output. I have found that 8th seems to be more about damage output and so this left me with a dilemma. Having decided I wanted to take a horde, did I take a horde of GW longbeards (this comes to almost 625 on the nose), Warriors or Quarrellers. In the end I went with GW warriors as I have previously taken a horde of Quarrellers (so wanted to try something different) and also it allowed me to include a small unit of quarrellers anyway to make up the core tax and to counter any chaff. It’s worth noting that due to the poor initiative of dwarves, taking great weapons doesn’t really impact them as you normally strike last anyway.

I produced a gzillion lists in the run up to the game (it’s one of the elements that is head and shoulder above KOW) but decided that I wanted to bring a horde of hammerers. The potential damage output of this unit is obscene with 40 str 6 attacks (or str 7 if you charge). I’ve given them the magic banner with Ro Valaya so that, as standard, I am always dispelling on a +4 (or as a lvl 4 wizard lord equivalent). It also allows any remains in play spells to be dispelled on a 3+ each turn. This combined with the 2 channel attempts and 2 dispel runes means it should help to tie down the magic phase.

2 Gyro’s round out the special choices as they are fantastic chaff and the 2 flame templates will mince large low toughness units.

As i’ve stated before, Irondrakes are one of my favorite units and work as both an anvil and highly effective shooting unit (especially with the Ro Slowness). This is one of the reasons I will now rarely take shield dwarves.

The final element of the army is my single warmachine, an organ gun. It has a single Ro Accuracy, which when combined with the Engineer will give it a standard 2+ to hit, or 3+ at long range (15-30″). Added to the ME artillery dice reroll ability should make this pretty effective (assuming I roll well on the 2 art’ dice and it isn’t killed in a turn or 2).

I consider this a true dwarf combined arms list rather than a gunline. Yes it does have a number of shooting units and the number may be greater than other armies but for dwarves this is almost a minimum and only one warmachines is practically unheard of! I’m sure i’ll regret not taking a cannon but this list is not about warmachines. I’ll leave them for another day when I don’t take the lord and so have more points to spend.

The hammerer unit will go front and centre with the lord and bsb in it. The Irondrakes will be set up forward and will do their normal retreat each turn to try and maximise their shooting. Their priority will be the trolls. The quarrellers will likely be to one side of the hammerers (or GW dwarves) and will aiming to remove all chaff. If they are attacked, one of the hordes can counter (though with their stand and shoot and GW’s, they should be able to hold their own somewhat).


Luke’s Warriors of Chaos list

Nurgle Daemon Prince – level 4 Lore of nurgle, flight, chaos armour, charmed shield, sword of striking, dragonbane gem, scaled skin, soul feeder, Chaos familiar – 525pts

Exalted hero (bsb) – Disc of tzeentch, halberd, enchanted shield, MoT, tzeentch third eye – 241pts

Throgg – 195pts

5 chaos hounds – 30pts

5 chaos hounds – 30pts

21 Chaos Warriors of Nurgle – FC, MoN, halberd, banner of swiftness – 444pts

5  Chaos trolls – additional hand weapons – 190pts

Marauder horse – champion, standard, javelins, flails – 110pts

Warshrine – MoT – 135pts

Warshrine – MoT – 135pts

Hellcannon – 210pts

3 Skullcrushers – champion, standard, ensorcelled weapons – 254pts


When he sent it through, he said he wanted to try a double shrine list and the only point of the shrine is to maximise the chances of good rolls on the eye of the gods table and it also has a bound spell that allows D3 eligible characters/champs within 12″ to roll on it when cast. This explains the number of unit champions. I’m not sure if two is over kill though.

He also stated that he wanted to try Lore of nurgle rather than death. The lore is a good all round one. There are no terrible spells but it does also lack a killer spell too.  I will need to be careful of curse of the leper, as that spell reduces toughness which is one of my strengths. One of the spells also increases the regen save by +1 which would be filth on the trolls.

He also got caught out on blood and glory in the recent comp and so has ensured banners in every unit.

I’m also not sure if he has taken a prince before. If he has, he must have been quite lucky as 8th is often a cannon heavy meta and it is not well protected against them. As I don’t have one, I will have to contend with a 1+, 5++ (2++ vs fire). Knows 5 spells, channels on a 5+. Flies. Hits everything in my army on a 2+ and is at -1 to hit (so everything in my army hits on a minimum of 5+) and he regains wounds on a 6 in combat. Frankly this is a beast, though is over a fifth of his points in one model so it has to be high on the list to kill. *sigh* where’s my cannon. 

He also included the standard unkillable (although surprising killable) bsb, with a 1+ (3+ in combat), 3++ save (rerolling ward rolls of 1). I do think that the discs have to be the most under-priced mount in the game (well with perhaps the exception of the shieldbearers).

I’ve not faced Throgg before but he will obviously be going in the troll unit which makes that my number one target for the irondrakes. If they get some hits then the organ gun will be tasked with finishing them off (if it is still there, as it’s primary target has to be the prince and Luke has to be thinking that the organ needs to be gotten rid of early).

He has 3 sets of chaff and the quarrellers will be aiming for them asap with priority going to the unit nearest the organ gun (with perhaps the mauraders first if possible of only due to it having a champion).

 The gyros will generally be a nuisance but will primarily try and tie down the hell cannon as that could mince my large blocks.
And with all that said, I decided to post this early and give him a heads up in case he happens to read this before Friday. I’m nice like that.

Evaluation of the Herd of Khazbar the Reborn (KOW)

As normal, now the games are completed i’ll take a look at the list and try and give an evaluation of how I think each element performed and what (if anything) I would change for future games.

I’ll recap my list and then comment.


Herd of Khazbar the Reborn

Khazbar (Shaman) – Heal + Myrddin’s Amulet – 130pts

Wazzock the Renewed (Shaman) – Heal – 120pts

Zhurrock the Mighty (Great Chieftain) – Chariot + Bows + Fire Oil – 205pts

(Brutox) – 220pts

(Brutox) – 220pts

Tribal Spirit Walkers (Horde) – Brew of Strength – 260pts

Longhorns (Regiment) – 145pts

Stampede (Horde) – Brew of Sharpness – 305pts

Guardian Brutes (Horde) – Blessing of the Gods – 255pts

Beast Pack (Troop) – 70pts

Beast Pack (Troop) – 70pts


Shamans. Absolutely fantastic. Heal was a 100% required as an upgrade and I found myself using it more than bane chant. If anything, I need to take an additional shaman but mounted, so they can keep up with the herd when it marches and still heal.

Chieftain on Chariot. I found myself always using him in conjunction with one of the Brutox and they worked really well together. The bows and fire oil upgrades did almost nothing and I probably wouldn’t bother with them going forward. I do feel that to get the most out of him I probably need to give him wine of the elven kind so he has nimble (though this is pricey). The question is whether he is worth the points when another spirit walker horde is only a bit more.

Brutox. I love these models though I’m not convinced on their ability to cause damage (I don’t like the random element of the attacks but the CS 2 is nice). They work well on the flanks and are pretty survivable (if I remember the regenerate!). Being large gribblies, they also have the bonus of drawing an opponents attention to them. I would definitely take one (or two) again.

Tribal Spirit Walkers. One word: amazing. I love this horde. It does suffer from being fragile as anything so it needs supporting with a second horde! The crushing strength item was a good purchase but I only included it as I had points spare.

Longhorns. I struggled to use this unit effectively. I found it too fragile and the lack of attacks compared with other units was really noticeable.

Stampede. Another fantastic unit. The brew of sharpness item really assisted its damage output, though I would be tempted with adding the additional movement item for a cheaper version. This will definitely be a mainstay in future armies.

Guardian Brutes. Again I really like this unit. Defence 5 makes a real difference and giving them elite always helped in attack. I would use them again with no hesitation.

Beast Packs. Fantastic chaff. I do need to learn to use them effectively as I was hit and miss in their application. 2 troops are prerequisites in any list.

Going forward

I need more chaff pure and simple. This realistically means Harpies (gargoyles? I forget the name) as I only own 10 beasts and also have 10 harpies. I could include a troop of hunters (and will try them) but I prefer the increased movement of the flying birdwomen.

As stated above I want a mounted Shaman in the list as it will allow it to keep up with the fast movers.

I fell afoul of large flyers in a number of my games and had nothing comparable with that depth of movement. As such I will also be swopping one of the Brutox for a chimera in order to try it out at some point. This also makes me want to support it with the avatar of the father, as a flying wing (so may mean the other is removed).

Lycans seem to be one of the go to unit selections and I could try them using my Minotaur models but I prefer not to proxy where possible.

So what will I take in my next list? If I use Herd, it will probably be:

Spirit walker horde – 230pts

Spirit walker horde – 230pts

2 * beast packs – 70 * 2 = 140pts

Stampede (blessing of the gods) – 285pts

Guardian brutes – 230pts

2 * shamans (heal) – 120 * 2 = 240pts

Avatar (heal + wings) – 345pts

Chimera (wings) – 210pts

Harpies – 90pts.

Very few items in the list and has a similar number of drops as the comp list.

There is however a good chance I’ll try a different army. I have some elves I’ve been itching to use…

2017 8th ed. whfb army – list bashing – Wood Elves

So far, most of this year has involved playing Kings of War. Whilst i’m more than happy with that, as i’ve been thoroughly enjoying it, i’m also hankering for some games of 8th edition. Yes I know the balance sucks and the rules are massively over complicated in comparison but the list building is infinitely more satisfying as is the Magic and item choice.

I really enjoyed playing the Beastmen last year but fancy a bit of a change (not least as I’m using them as herd in KOW). Whilst not writing off playing either them or my dwarves (if I play Dan or Luke, i’m sure i’ll dig them out to at least try and be competitive), I don’t want to use them too much, so this year I am going to give my elves a bit of an outing. I’ve played the high elves a few times with mixed results so definitely need some more practice with them, however I am going to start out with what is possibly rated as one of the most difficult armies to use*, the Wood Elves. They have a play style i’ve never really got my head round and last time I fought with them was in 4th edition whfb so I think I am likely to get my butt kicked a fair few times. Still that is nothing new and as long as I learn from the losses i’m happy to take a beating or two 😉.

* no idea if that is true but seems to be the general consensus online.

As always i’ve knocked together a number of lists a couple of which i’ve put below and then given some thoughts and comments around them. Many of the combos are nothing new to players familiar with wood elves and some seem to have been universally agreed as not quite worth the points (e.g. The waystalker and bow of Loren) but I still want to try them out and to my knowledge we don’t have a dedicated wood elf player at the club (Greg did use them for one round of the 2016 whfb comp but his usual army is dark elves), so in general, peeps won’t be used to the tricks/play style.

Now one thing that I will need to do is glue together a load of the models and their bases to make things easier and that’s before I even look at what needs painting!


List 1

Spellweaver – Talisman of Preservation + Lore of Shadow – 265pts

Glade Captain – BSB – Great Eagle + Helm of the Hunt + Hail of Doom arrow + Starfire arrows + Asrai Bow + Asrai Spear – 208pts

Shadowdancer – AHW + Potion of Strength – 120pts

Waystalker – Bow of Loren + ahw – 110pts

Dryads (10) – 110pts

Eternal Guard (23) – Light Armour + Shields + Asrai Spear + FC + Banner of Discipline – 321pts

Glade Guard (12) – Asrai Bow + Trueflight arrows + Musician + Standard – 200pts

Treekin (6) – 270pts

Deepwood Scouts (10) – Asrai Bow + Hagbane arrows – 160pts

Wardancers (5) – ahw – 75pts

Warhawk Riders (3) – Asrai Bow + Asrai Spear – 135pts

Wild Riders (10) – Asrai Spear + light armour+ shields + FC + Banner of Swiftness – 325pts

Waywatchers (10) – Asrai Bow + ahw – 200pts

A combined arms list. The Eternal guard will go front and centre in a wood with both the spellweaver and shadowdancer embedded there. With the heroes it gives the unit 5 ranks, enough to take some casualties and still remain a threat. I’ve chosen the Lore of shadow, as it’s the Lore I’m most familiar with and I think complements the strengths and weaknesses of the army. The shadowdancer is to be used as a force multiplier/assassin/bodyguard.

They will be supported by the Glade guard who curtesy of their arrows will be firing with no modifiers.

The Dryads are there to be used as my chaff or to flank charge where possible.

The mounted hero is there as mobile support first and bsb second. He can strip regen and is ideal to remove Chaff either at range with the hoda or in combat with his 4 Str 5 AP attacks on the chg (+ the eagle). The eagle allows him to Keep up and support the wild riders with frenzy tests if nothing else.

The wild riders are the recognised anvil. The banner ensures that they will have the charge range on almost everything. 10 may seem overkill but allows some casualties and still maintain combat effectiveness.

The Treekin are my anvil. They are tough and should be able to hold up any unit I don’t want to engage with for a number of turns. They will be supported by the wardancers who will either help the combat by removing the rank bonus or can be used as a speed bump, particularly vs anything with impact hits.

The warhawk riders are my flexible arm. They can help remove chaff, hunt warmachines or assist in combats.

The Scouts are tasked with either removing War machines or high toughness low armour troops (such as trolls) from the get go.

The Waywatchers will be going for any high armour low toughness troops. Knights are a prime example. Monstrous cav are also an option but may require the assistance of the spellweaver.

The waystalker will either assist with the Waywatchers or will take on character assassination.

List 2

Glade Lord – Ogre Blade + Armour of Destiny + Potion of Foolhardiness + Steed + Shield + Asrai Bow + Starfire Shafts – 267pts

Glade Captain – BSB – Charmed Shield + light armour + Dragonbane gem + Hail of Doom + Great Eagle + Asrai Spear + Asrai Bow + Starfire Shafts – 196pts

Spellweaver – lvl 4 – + Dispell scroll + talisman of preservation – 290pts

Shadowdancer – AHW + potion of strength – 120pts

Dryads (10) – 110pts

Eternal Guard (23) – Light armour + shields + Asrai spear + FC + Standard of Discipline – 321pts

Glade Guard (12) – Asrai bow + standard + muscian + trueflight arrows

Deepwood scouts (10) – Asrai bow + hagbane tips – 160pts

Wildriders (9) – FC + light armour + shields + Asrai spears + banner of swiftness – 297pts

Warhawk Riders (3) – Asrai spears + Asrai bows – 135pts

Waywatchers (10) – AHW + Asrai bows – 200pts

Waywatchers (10) – AHW + Asrai bows – 200pts

Another combined arms list, which is similar to the first. The Eternal guard will again go front and centre in a wood with both the characters as above.

They will be supported by the Glade guard and Dryads.

The wild riders are the main hammer for all the reasons stated above.  They will be augmented by the Glade lord in the unit. He might be considered a controversial choice but I like having combat characters and his ld10 will help to control the riders frenzy and if the spellweaver sucks herself down a hole, I’ll still have a general! He can also help remove regen and gains an extra attack on the charge.

The mounted hero is again primed as both a mobile support and bsb. This build gives him a bit more survivability over combat oomph (especially vs cannons). The more I see the eagle bsb, the more I like the flexibility it offers.

The warhawk riders and scouts are included for the same reasons as above (and I love the models!).

Finally I’ve included 2 units of Waywatchers due to the flexibility they offer.

I am wondering if I need to fit in the waystalker somehow as bow of Loren or not, the ability to snipe characters/champions, on paper at least, seems too good to pass up.


There are a number of units not represented in the lists.

Wildwood rangers – quite deliberate as I don’t own any of the models!

Sisters of the thorn. My gut feel is that these are the ultimate avoidance unit and it seems like they are mainly used to bunker the lvl 4. Maybe I’ll try them further down the line but for the moment, they are consigned to the back burner.

I’d love to fit a treeman into the list but I play in a cannon heavy meta and experience has taught me that the big guys won’t last long enough to contribute. A better option would perhaps be the treeman ancient as with 6 wounds and Lore of life, the survive-ability increases and I can see me giving it a go but it is still a risky choice.

Glade Riders – Although I like the idea of them turning up and running around the back field causing havoc, the random ambush rule just puts me off, especially knowing what my single dice rolls are like.

The first list also feels like it’s lacking archers. I’m almost contemplating an all Glade archer core, 2 units of scouts and 2 of waywatchers. 100+ bows maybe overkill…

Beastmen/Herd – State of Play

After looking at my Wood Elves and Dwarves I thought i’d also take stock of my latest army: Beastmen. Like the last post, i’ll look at it from a Warhammer point of view, so i’ll group them my Core/Special/Rare/Characters but it will be slightly interspersed with Kings of War references as I have a couple of models that don’t really translate.

Some of the models were ebay purchases, pre-painted and so as normal full disclosure will be given.

I can only field a 3000pt whfb army (which makes this the smallest of my five ‘complete’ armies), as although I have the models to field a lot more points of special choices, I only have enough core choices for that value.


60 Gor – all painted (This equates to 2 Hordes and a Regiment of Spirit walkers in KOW).

10 Ungor raiders (never used so unpainted)

2 Tuskgor Chariots

10 Warhounds (need to be painted – I never used them with Beastmen and they were actually in my Warriors of Chaos pile but 2 troops of 5 in KOW are almost compulsory).







8 Minotaurs (5 painted, 3 on the way)

40 Bestigor (or 2 Regiments of Longhorns – 25 are painted).

10 Harpies (ok I only photo’ed 5 of them but the others are identical)

2 Razorgor – no separate photos, instead i’ve photographed the start of my Stampede – still need to decide on a final addition (for those taking notes, you’ll see I’ve already started on my Monster March creatures).






2 Ghorgons




3 Shamans

3 Heroes (the 2 painted were from ebay).

1 Doombull (again a pre-painted purchase).

1 Hero on mount – being used as hero on Chariot

1 Gorebull BSB – a slightly (ok massively) oversized rhino model (it’s a good head above the doombull but I didn’t find any Minotaur standards I really liked).




A while back, Imperial Rebel Orc asked everyone how many models they own, so I’m using this series of posts to help keep a tally of my models as I go through them.

In total the Beastmen/Herd army is around 150 models of various sorts, 44 still to paint.

My dwarfs total around 320 models (I’ve added some more miners since I last reviewed them), of which 80 odd still need to be finished. I also have 6 mine carts that can be used as unit fillers.

The wood elves total around 193 models (including my latest purchase of the 4th edition Ariel model that I picked up for a steal on ebay and will be used as the Green Lady model in KOW). Around 85 need to be finished, they all need basing and some of the older models I also want to revisit.

So total models so far: 663.

I have one other large complete army to hand (High elves – approx 250 models) and another large army at my folks (O&G). I then have a reasonable collection of undead, Warriors of Chaos, Space Marines and Blood Bowl teams with assorted other models i’ve picked up over the years (mainly GW and mainly fantasy, with some necromunda as I sold my epic 40k several years ago). I’m not sure i’ll ever be easily able to catalog all my models, mainly as most of the rest are in storage at my folks, but i’ll keep going (at least for the main forces).



KOW – 2017 SELWG Competition- Entry list

With my current love of all things Beastmen Herd, it should come as no surprise to readers of this blog that I have chosen to use that army in the comp, continuing the adventures of Khazbar the Magnificent. I’ll do my normal job of listing the army and breaking it down and analysing it so my opponents only have to read this rather than having to put in any effort themselves 🙄 (I’m dumb nice like that).

Khazbar raised his head off the ground and slowly looked around, vague images of plague daemons and an Empire of men evaporated as he regained consciousness.  Something was different, the chaotic glee that had previous filled his head was gone. His thoughts had more clarity and for the first time in an age he didn’t feel like lashing out at everything in reach. He noted two other unmoving forms lying in the meadow, close to the edge of the woods that surrounded it and was about to investigate when the air shimmered and convalesced into the shape of a lady, her incorporeal form glowing green and hovering above the ground. His eyes widened as her thoughts projected into his head as a series of images, of shifting worlds, burning woods and a sense of oneness. His resolve hardened as he realised that she had not just plucked him and the other 2 immobile forms from a different realm but had given them a purpose. He was one with the natural world and those that pillaged and desecrated it would be taken to account.


The Herd of Khazbar the Magnificent (reborn)

Khazbar (Shaman) – Heal + Myrddin’s Amulet – 130pts

Wazzock the Renewed (Shaman) – Heal – 120pts

Zhurrock the Mighty (Great Chieftain) – Chariot + Bows + Fire Oil – 205pts

(Brutox) – 220pts

(Brutox) – 220pts

Tribal Spirit Walkers (Horde) – Brew of Strength – 260pts

Longhorns (Regiment) – 145pts

Stampede (Horde) – Brew of Sharpness – 305pts

Guardian Brutes (Horde) – Blessing of the Gods – 255pts

Beast Pack (Troop) – 70pts

Beast Pack (Troop) – 70pts
Thoughts on the army composition

As to be expected, I chopped and changed and revisited a dozen or so lists before settling on the above. Am I happy with it? Reasonably. With no real play testing I’m going in blind and the majority of this is purely theory hammer combined with advice from helpful players.

One of these was to further breakdown your army into segments (Or as I’m calling them in my head attack wings), that can operate independently whilst supporting the whole. I’ve tried to incorporate this philosophy into the list. Whether I’ve done it well and more importantly can utilise it, well we will have to see.

It’s worth noting that about the only restrictions levied against us in the pack was a max of 2 of each type of monster, warmachine and character. I’ve added a summary of the comp pack here.

So why take what I did?

Double Brutox. I have 2 models I love and wanted to use. One monster is easy to target, so taking 2, almost ensures that one will get into combat, especially running them as a pack. They are also intimidating models and should drawn a lot of attention. Although only average melee stats and defense, they hit hard, have high nerve and can regenerate damage, so should be quite survivable.

Chieftain on chariot. He will normally run with the Brutox as will only add to the hitting power, whilst being the only source of inspiring that can keep pace with them. Having bows will give a chance of adding some damage and fire oil will assist against regen units both at range and in combat. He is not an individual so does double/triple attacks and both hits hard and easily.

Stampede – having used this already I’m aware of what a monster it can be. The item, while expensive, further increases the power of the unit.

Tribal Spirit Walkers – my designated anvil. Though low def and average melee, it has a lot of attacks and the item helps with damage in the grind.

Longhorns – these are elite troops that hit easily and reasonably hard. With only average nerve and a low number of attacks, im still not sure about them but decided to give them another go over taking a regiment of spirit walkers, figuring the increased hit and dmg stats should even out against the loss of attacks. A supporting shaman should help mitigate the lower nerve using heal (if necessary and if I get the chance ofc!).

Guardian Brutes – another solid unit. Most herd players seem to prefer Lycans due to the increased speed but I’m trying not to proxy and have a load of Minotaurs that fit the bill perfectly. These are about my most heavily armoured troops, have a reasonable amount of attacks and hit hard. The item helps to offset the average to hit stats. I did contemplate moving the items round between the stampede and brutes but decided the greater speed on the stampede made it the better unit to use the brew on.

The two shamans were to be used to support the infantry with inspiring, bane chant or heal (as required).

Finally the beast packs were included as chaff, their job to get in the face of my opponents and gum up their plans. I am worried that I’ve badly short changed myself here, as in every other list I’ve made (or seen) there are 3-4 chaff (whether beast packs or harpies). However sacrifices had to be made to encorporate the double Brutox/Chieftain combo and at least I’m using something that I’ve not seen online (there may be a reason for this…), so hopefully my opponents will be as clueless as myself on the effectiveness!

With list submission deadline today (3rd in case I post this late), we should have the draw in the next week or so but it’s now likely my first game will be late March or early April due to prior weekend commitments (what can I say, everyone seems to be turning 40 this year!).